Worcester Cathedral

[contraviolone]

I am certainly looking forward to listening to the new Worcester Organ, it certainly looks superb from the photos supplied by Adrian. I am sure it will also deliver some magic, just in the same way that some English organs can also be magical. Or rather, certain divisions can be magical, such as the Choir division at King's College, Cambridge!

[nfortin]

Strange, I didn't see or hear many 'old rusty saucepans' on my recent visit to Gloucester. Not many cats about either. So what really should we find in an English Cathedral Organ? Is it the usual compromised hotch-potch of heavy pondorous diapasons, thin watery strings, broad bellowy reeds on the Great that bear little resemblance to musical reeds whatsoever, the depressing array of imitative orchestral noises on the solo that bear no resemblance absolutely whatsoever to any orchestral instrument known to man, and the coup de grace, the English tuba stop, the most noisome and incongruous excuse for a very loud noise ever devised by the hands of man? Is this really what an English Cathedral organ is all about? Is it??

You'd better come clean and say which cathedral organs you have in mind, because having played just about all of the cathedral and other "great church" organs in the midlands and south west in the last year or two I can't think of a single one that matches your description.

 

I also can't imagine that anyone would seriously suggest that organ voices on a "traditional" english solo organ accurately match the sound of the orchestral instrument on the stop knob. So what? What's your point here? These are organ voices, and from an organist's point of view one only expects them to match an organ stop of the same name. Like it or not these are part of our heritage.

 

I find this generalised dismissal of the tuba stop to be divorced from reality. I'm told the Durham Cathedral organ has 3 tubas. I've not heard it and cannot therefore judge, but it seems reasonable to assume that if all are coupled through as a part of the tutti this might be excessive. By contrast, if you take the single tubas at Hereford, or that at Salisbury, as examples, these are bright, ringing solo voices. Far more musical I would suggest than many of the chamade reeds perhaps preferred by some.

[Pierre Lauwers]

" Far more musical I would suggest than many of the chamade reeds perhaps preferred by some."

(Quote)

 

.....And this is an understatment!

 

Pierre

[pcnd5584]

By contrast, if you take the single tubas at Hereford, or that at Salisbury, as examples, these are bright, ringing solo voices. Far more musical I would suggest than many of the chamade reeds perhaps preferred by some.

 

I disagree (unsurprisingly).

 

Having played Salisbury recently, there are two tuba ranks - one at 8ft. pitch and a Tuba Clarion at 4ft. pitch. Both are still inclined to honk, particularly in the tenor region of the unison rank. (In case one or two here are wondering, I was obliged to use them at a couple of points - notably when the choir and congregation were temporarily sited aound one hundred and fifty feet to the east of where I was playing). Personally, I did not find them particularly musical - they were certainly less 'fat' than some examples originally voiced by Arthur Harrison, but the sound still tended towards the opaque. They also effectively doubled the power of the rest of the instrument. Whilst this meant that the choir were able to hear the organ from the Lady Chapel, and to sing along with the hymn (and the anthem!), I cannot honestly say that I found the experience in any way edifying - or even thrilling - just bloody loud.

[contraviolone]

You'd better come clean and say which cathedral organs you have in mind, because having played just about all of the cathedral and other "great church" organs in the midlands and south west in the last year or two I can't think of a single one that matches your description

 

I really don't feel I need to 'come clean', thank you. I prefer to listen to a number of Organs which I personally find enjoyable: there are two instruments I particularly enjoy in England, and there is a significantly larger number of instrumemts I enjoy in Continental Europe. I suppose you may call this personal 'taste'. Whatever you may call it, I certainly do not enjoy many of the sounds produced by the Organs you play upon nfortin. I am entitled to my opinion, and you are entitled to yours. The spirit of Magna Carta is not quite dead....yet.

 

Having played Salisbury recently, there are two tuba ranks - one at 8ft. pitch and a Tuba Clarion at 4ft. pitch. Both are still inclined to honk, particularly in the tenor region of the unison rank

 

This reminds me of Ely, which is almost on my doorstep. The tuba here makes a dreadful noise, when last I heard it most people wished to leave the Cathedral as quickly as possible, specifically because of the horrendous noise coming from this stop. Ughhh.

[Colin Harvey]

Indeed, I can think of two particular organs that I would prefer to listen to in Scotland, over and above a significant number of organs in England, (namely, Paisley Abbey, and the Hradetzky Organ at St Salvador's Chapel, University of St Andrews).

Interesting you cite these two organs as examples. Could you elaborate why these two?

 

Picking two from my personal experience (i've played St Salvator's, which I'll come back to...) I would choose the Frobenius in Canongate and the Aubertin in Aberdeen as my two favourite Scottish organs. Canongate has beautiful choruses and fits the building beautifully (exactly the right shade of blue to go with the rest of the painted woodwork, the curve of the top of the case around the round window - all so sensitive and successful). It works extremely nicely and is extremely flexible - it seems just as adept at romantic repertoire as baroque. The people who made it really knew a thing or two about making beautiful organs and it has its own distinctive style. Guys, this organ would even be a delight to accompany evensong with, even if it doesn't have any registration accessories. The Aubertin in Aberdeen I know only from recordings but those who've heard those recordings will know why I've cited it...

 

I've had on good authority the Ahrend organ in Reid concert hall is good, St Giles Edinburgh from my experience is very impressive, I'd really like to play Usher Hall - that console is the most sumptuous thing I've seen on an organ - and Norman & Beard are very underrated, I've heard Kelvingrove and Dunblane are also well worth more than a passing visit.

 

St Salvators: my experience (when I was used to the Peter Collins at TSCH): thin, spitting foundations and principals, top-heavy choruses where the pipes in the mixtures are voiced more strongly than the 8 foots (yet still chiff...seriously - the only time I've ever really noticed mixture chiff), reeds so rough and uneven as to be unusable in some cases; but more objectively: poor regulation, bad action, too big a specification for the size of the case it inhabits. I've only heard San Salvators from the console - I've never heard it from the ground, where I'm told it sounds better - but distance and a good acoustic can cover a multitude of sins. Maybe I came to it on a bad day but I much prefer Christchurch, Oxon any day of the week, which is a fine organ in itself, even if I feel it is too loudly voiced for the building and not designed at all to suit its principal role of Anglican choral accompaniment.

 

Ely: yes. I've never worked out quite how they made mixtures in the 1975 rebuild that were so completely separate from the rest of the organ. Quite an extraordinary sound. Wakefield has a wonderful Compton foghorn - I've never come across such a thick, oily tuba - I guess it's the musical equivalent of an oil slick from a sinking tanker in a site of special scientific interest, but sadly, I started to rather enjoy its qualities, if only to annoy people who were too precious of their musical opinions...

[pcnd5584]

I drive a hatchback. If I've got a sofa to take to the dump I might with some difficulty, and possible ingenuity, manage to get it into the car and succeed in transporting the said article to the dump. I can then state from personal experience that my car is perfectly able to take sofas to the dump. However this can not disguise the fact that really a large volvo estate would be much better for the purpose and a flat bed truck or transit van better still. Therefore when choosing my vehicle, if the majority of its journeys involve taking a sofa to the dump does it not follow that a hatchback is not the best choice?

 

I do not regard this as a particularly apt analogy. Quite how one can compare taking an unwanted sofa to a local dump in any type of vehicle with accompanying a choir on a [specified] cathedral organ is beyond my ability to fathom.

 

In the first place: the (hypothetical) sofa is (presumably) junk.

 

Secondly: it is likely that it makes little in the way of musical sounds. (Before you respond, I am not prepared to accept a proposal which would seek to compare the sound of the Gloucester/Christ Church, Oxford organs to creaking sofa springs.)

 

Thirdly: as long as it does not damage your hatchback, does anyone actually care how it gets to the dump?

 

Fourthly: I think it unlikely that anyone will want to listen to any sounds which your sofa does make as you attempt to remove it from your car.

 

Fifthly: not even the blessed Virgil Fox (were he to return temporarily) could accompany an Evensong using your sofa.

 

Sixthly: the Gloucester organ (specifically) is capable of producing many sounds of both beauty and subtlety. (As a matter of interest, there is - or was - an old sofa in the organ loft there). Whilst I grant that beauty is in the [ear] of the beholder, nevertheless it is the organist's job to seek out such sounds as are dynamically appropriate (which also naturally impinges on timbre).

 

Incidentally, I am not sure what might be termed 'correct sounds'. This is, in any case, subjective. As I wrote previously (on the Mander Board....) there are comaratively few instances in the organ parts of (for want of a more precise terminology) Anglican cathedral-style choral music where specific registrations are given by the composers*. Therefore there are no rules set in stone. Careful adherence to the dynamic markings (and with due regard for balance, acoustics and the available vocal forces) and a good overall sense of the appropriate style(s) are of course necessary.

 

Given that there are so many variables which can affect the succes of any particular performance, I find the term 'correct sounds' a little misleading.

 

 

 

* I can think of just a few - Stanford's setting of the Evening Canticles, in A, contains a few registrational guidelines. In addition, Dyson often specified the use of an 8ft. pedal (without a 16ft. stop). Balfour Gardiner was known to request 'brighter tone' and 'rich tone'. There is, of course, Bairstow who, in Blessed City, Heavenly Salem made twelve suggestions for registrations; however, even some of these are not particularly specific. This piece was also written at a time when it was the habit of certain editors to include such directions as 'Great Diaps 16 and 8' or 'Full Swell' in the course of various preludes and fugues by Johann Sebastian Bach. I doubt that there are many here who would wish to follow such markings - even if one were playing on the organ of Saint Mary, Redcliffe.

[gazman]

I do not regard this as a particularly apt analogy.

 

I rather liked it! He's just basically saying "horses for courses".

[undamaris]

You'd better come clean and say which cathedral organs you have in mind, because having played just about all of the cathedral and other "great church" organs in the midlands and south west in the last year or two I can't think of a single one that matches your description.

 

I also can't imagine that anyone would seriously suggest that organ voices on a "traditional" english solo organ accurately match the sound of the orchestral instrument on the stop knob. So what? What's your point here? These are organ voices, and from an organist's point of view one only expects them to match an organ stop of the same name. Like it or not these are part of our heritage.

 

I find this generalised dismissal of the tuba stop to be divorced from reality. I'm told the Durham Cathedral organ has 3 tubas. I've not heard it and cannot therefore judge, but it seems reasonable to assume that if all are coupled through as a part of the tutti this might be excessive. By contrast, if you take the single tubas at Hereford, or that at Salisbury, as examples, these are bright, ringing solo voices. Far more musical I would suggest than many of the chamade reeds perhaps preferred by some.

I feel I have to agree! There IS a place for our wonderful tubas - CS Lang and Mr Cocker would be rolling in their graves at all of this! Can anyone seriously imagine "I was Glad" opened by a chamade reed with all the presence of a high pressure kazoo? It just wouldn't work! Just the same as a Willis Corno di Bassetto would no more pass for a cromorne or krummhorn in early French or German music. Each stop has its place according to the era and tastes that the music composed for it allows - and even calls for. Mr Hollins specified an Orchestral Trumpet for his (in)famous minuette after all, which also makes purists cringe.

I have to admit that over the years some of our tubas have hardly been musical, but wouldn't you if you hadn't recieved a bit of regulation after a couple of decades? I can cite the incredible Tuba Mirabilis at York for one - I have recordings of it where almost each note is of different tone and power. These seem to be what "purists" decry these stops for at times, but they also seem to be the same people who glory in the dissonance of historically "un touched" reeds of some Iberian organs solely because of their age never mind their musical ability.

Hill developed the most wonderful high pressure reeds we have so much to be thankful for, that characteristic "yell" those reeds have! Willis built on this, giving us a sound more akin to something from a furnace - they almost crackle! As for Lewis - just listen to Southwark Cathedral - as far as I know even Willis didn't tamper too much with this leaving us another reed to be proud of!

I'm an Englishman and I love my tubas! They have a place in our wonderful musical heritage - I'm also a musician who loves chamade reeds and all their fire and power when they are voiced and used properly and sensitively - but above all, I admire the organist who recognises the value of these stops and uses them with the discretion and with due defference to the music in which such reeds are called for.

[Pierre Lauwers]

"This reminds me of Ely"...

(Quote)

 

Have it back to its 1908 state before assessing it !

 

I went trough the Solo division in the 70's (after the rebuilt), when it was

the sole intact division remaining there to take all the scales.

It was -and I hope it still is- a gem, and an huge lesson in organ

design.

 

Pierre

[Vox Humana]

Can anyone seriously imagine "I was Glad" opened by a chamade reed with all the presence of a high pressure kazoo? It just wouldn't work!

Of course not, at least not those sorts of chamades, but a honking great foghorn isn't the ideal option either. What that opening really needs is a powerful, bright, incisive Solo Trumpet.

 

I have heard the odd Tuba I could live with. The Tromba from the old Marlborough organ has been turned into a perfectly serviceable one, though it's arguably a notch or three too loud. Nevertheless, give me an full-toned Orchestral/Imperial/Military-type Trumpet any day.

 

Tubas are limited. They don't really do fanfares, do they? What fanfare ever consisted of a series of fat honks? A decent Trumpet will do the job so much better. And it will do anything a Tuba can do as well.

[pcnd5584]

Of course not, at least not those sorts of chamades, but a honking great foghorn isn't the ideal option either. What that opening really needs is a powerful, bright, incisive Solo Trumpet.

 

I have heard the odd Tuba I could live with. The Tromba from the old Marlborough organ has been turned into a perfectly serviceable one, though it's arguably a notch or three too loud. Nevertheless, give me an full-toned Orchestral/Imperial/Military-type Trumpet any day.

 

Tubas are limited. They don't really do fanfares, do they? What fanfare ever consisted of a series of fat honks? A decent Trumpet will do the job so much better. And it will do anything a Tuba can do as well.

 

Indeed, Vox.

 

Actually, our chamade works extremely well of the first page of I was glad (including the left-hand fanfare chords); it is really only in single notes where this stop becomes objectionable.

[nfortin]

I do not regard this as a particularly apt analogy......

 

(As a matter of interest, there is - or was - an old sofa in the organ loft there). font]

I rather enjoyed reading your reply, although I'm sure you didn't really think I was for one moment suggesting that my sofa could provide an apt accompaniment for Coll Reg. or whatever. I accompanied evensong in Gloucester quite recently, and was there with my church choir in March. I believe the sofa is no longer present in the loft and would like to make it clear that neither I, or my hatchback, were in anyway involved.

[Pierre Lauwers]

"I believe the sofa is no longer present in the loft and would like to make it clear that neither I, or my hatchback, were in anyway involved."

(Quote)

 

Uuugh, what a beautiful case of (supposed) "political correctness"!

Let us deal with the facts, the true question is: which purpose

is this piece of furniture intended for??? Mmmh ?

Music ?

Really?

 

Pierre

[Guest Roffensis]

I disagree (unsurprisingly).

 

Having played Salisbury recently, there are two tuba ranks - one at 8ft. pitch and a Tuba Clarion at 4ft. pitch. Both are still inclined to honk, particularly in the tenor region of the unison rank. (In case one or two here are wondering, I was obliged to use them at a couple of points - notably when the choir and congregation were temporarily sited aound one hundred and fifty feet to the east of where I was playing). Personally, I did not find them particularly musical - they were certainly less 'fat' than some examples originally voiced by Arthur Harrison, but the sound still tended towards the opaque. They also effectively doubled the power of the rest of the instrument. Whilst this meant that the choir were able to hear the organ from the Lady Chapel, and to sing along with the hymn (and the anthem!), I cannot honestly say that I found the experience in any way edifying - or even thrilling - just bloody loud.

 

 

There are also 8 and 4 Tubas at Canterbury Cathedral which, to my ears, are even more successful than the fine examples at Salisbury. These blend very well with the Tutti, as well as having more than enough power as Solo stops. These, incidently, certainly don't "honk" either, but I know of many Tubas that do.

 

R

[Guest Roffensis]

Indeed, Vox.

 

Actually, our chamade works extremely well of the first page of I was glad (including the left-hand fanfare chords); it is really only in single notes where this stop becomes objectionable.

 

 

Hmm, not quite the sound for the opening of Parry though is it, as fine as that organ is.

 

R

[pcnd5584]

I rather enjoyed reading your reply, although I'm sure you didn't really think I was for one moment suggesting that my sofa could provide an apt accompaniment for Coll Reg. or whatever. I accompanied evensong in Gloucester quite recently, and was there with my church choir in March. I believe the sofa is no longer present in the loft and would like to make it clear that neither I, or my hatchback, were in anyway involved.

 

Not at all, Neil! Although I am sorry to hear that the sofa has been ousted; it was a pleasantly comfortable (compared to the organ bench) place to spend a sermon.

 

Are you sure you did not sqeeze even part of it into your glove compartment?

[pcnd5584]

Hmm, not quite the sound for the opening of Parry though is it, as fine as that organ is.

 

R

 

Actually Richard, it is extremely suitable since, with other reeds and some chorus work coupled throught they resemble closely the type of fanfare trumpets which occasionally adorn the organ loft at Westminster Abbey (the ones with the flags hanging from the resonators) - and are generally blown by some smart-looking gentlemen from Kneller Hall, ot the Queen's Own Household Whatsits.

[pcnd5584]

"I believe the sofa is no longer present in the loft and would like to make it clear that neither I, or my hatchback, were in anyway involved."

(Quote)

 

Uuugh, what a beautiful case of (supposed) "political correctness"!

Let us deal with the facts, the true question is: which purpose

is this piece of furniture intended for??? Mmmh ?

Music ?

Really?

 

Pierre

Fear not, Pierre. Neil has promised not to attempt to play any Howells on this sofa. In any case, the compass is not quite large enough - and there are no reversible pistons.

 

However, this week-end I shall attempt to play the rather operatic Mass settings we are due to perform using a mahogany armoire, a Louis XIV bureau and an aubergine peeler. The action to the latter is original (Barker lever) and neither piece of furniture has been restored - save for a little French polishing.

[MikeK]

Please may we return to the forum topic, I find this thread re. likes & dislikes rather childish in a topic that Adrian has otherwise made so informative. If you must continue, why not start a new topic?

[pcnd5584]

Please may we return to the forum topic, I find this thread re. likes & dislikes rather childish in a topic that Adrian has otherwise made so informative. If you must continue, why not start a new topic?

 

I should imagine that Adrian is rather busy at present, with preparations for the Three Choirs' Festival, in addition to overseeing the voicing and finishing of the new instrument in time for the advertised opening. Consequently, until the addition of further pictures, or following the official opening of the organ, it is possible that we have run out of useful things to say about it for the time being.

 

Personally, I can see no harm in a temporary diversion, given that most threads on this board chamge direction at least once in their duration. After all, it is not as if there is a finite limit (other than banwidth) on posts.

[Pierre Lauwers]

The "childs" may happen to obtain in the most unexpected places.

 

(An old flemish proverb.... )

 

Pierre

[handsoff]

The discussion, Adrian's wonderful photographs and descriptions of the new organ at Worcester have fired me up enough to buy my ticket for DGW's recital on 8 August. The last time I heard an organ at Worcester Cathedral was for Jean Langlais' recital in c. 1976 so I must be due for a visit. Does anyone know which is the best car park to use (with SatNav info if available) - I have never enjoyed driving anywhere near the city centre....

 

Thank you

 

P

[Lucasorg]

Please may we return to the forum topic, I find this thread re. likes & dislikes rather childish in a topic that Adrian has otherwise made so informative. If you must continue, why not start a new topic?

Thank you!!!

 

A

[Lucasorg]

I should imagine that Adrian is rather busy at present, with preparations for the Three Choirs' Festival, in addition to overseeing the voicing and finishing of the new instrument in time for the advertised opening. Consequently, until the addition of further pictures, or following the official opening of the organ, it is possible that we have run out of useful things to say about it for the time being.

 

Personally, I can see no harm in a temporary diversion, given that most threads on this board chamge direction at least once in their duration. After all, it is not as if there is a finite limit (other than banwidth) on posts.

Actually, I'm just waiting for the opportunity to get upstairs once the rest of the scaffolding is out and get some more shots. That will also be the point when we can uncover the console from its present protected state. I'd like to take some shots of the Sw Vox Humana and a few fish-eye views of the various soundboards....but don't let me stop the mud-slinging as I'm really looking forward to the point where this thread has more hits than the old one you lot were so kind as to start all those years ago! We're heading for somewhere over 42000 which should be achievable, I'd have thought.....

 

May God bless you all!!

 

A