Gloucester Cathedral

[James Atherton]

15 hours ago, sjf1967 said:

No, I'm not joking in any shape or form, it's the real scheme - the firm is hardly likely to publish a comedy version on its own website. I'm going to wait until I've heard/played it before deciding what I think. Only 3 years to wait, it'll fly past.

Thank you, we are all really excited for this project!

[James Atherton]

17 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:

This, surely, is a spoof in spite of appearing on Nicholson’s website?  It’s signed off by James Atherton in the same month as he asked whether he might put up a suggested specification on the ‘other’ thread “Gloucester Armchair Game”.

Nothing spoof about this. My comment on the other thread was meant to make people laugh. Having designed the specification of the organ that is to be built, I am at somewhat of an advantage, wouldn't you say.....

[James Atherton]

Just now, James Atherton said:

Nothing spoof about this. My comment on the other thread was meant to make people laugh. Having designed the specification of the organ that is to be built, I am at somewhat of an advantage, wouldn't you say.....

Or even an unfair advantage 

[James Atherton]

16 hours ago, contraviolone said:

Quite honestly i don't know what to make of it. I've always been a firm believer in an independent Pedal organ as much as possible (space permitting of course), but the derivations and borrowings on this one defy belief. I'm not keen on reed chorus extensions either. I would imagine Ralph Downes will be spinning in his grave at least 24,000 rpm, which is about as much as a modern powerful turbo on a Ferrari. Seriously though, have we come full circle? Is this the reincarnation of John Compton and Robert Hope Jones?

you've hit the nail on the head with the word 'space'. Had we had more space in that ancient and tiny organ case the specification would have reflected that. As it is we have had to think hard about how we provide a flexible instrument for accompanying the liturgy, with all the appropriate gentle colour that was lacking in its predecessor, whilst still having a thrilling recital instrument. Extension has been used in the colouring stops, whilst keeping the integrity of the principal choruses. A 16' based Nave division, 8' based Great, Swell and Chaire. 

An independent pedal is not necessary for a cathedral organ, however the Nave on Pedal transfer will provide independence for the pedal line when required, as the Nave Grand Chorus is based on the 16' rather than 8' 

[swalmsley]

My question is as follows:

It would seem to be something of a scaling and voicing challenge for the four significant reeds:

Bombarde

Posaune

Trompette

Tuba

which are each available at at least three pitches and - mostly - across multiple divisions.

No doubt the generous acoustic is going to help "smooth the edges", but ultimately each rank is going to be optimised for one particular pitch in either manual or pedal.

So James' ideas for how this challenge is going to be met would be interesting....

 

[Martin Cooke]

I have nothing very much to add about this other than to say that I think it's a very interesting scheme indeed. Like any organ, it will always sound best at the hands of those who play it daily, but I suspect that many will declare it a masterpiece once complete and settled. Of course there are some who will bemoan the adoption of such a degree of borrowing and extension, but this is a real 'horses for courses' design to suit a very particular situation. And let's face it, borrowing and extension was the name of the game in all those Compton instruments which are often spoken of in hushed and respectful terms. It seems to me to be hugely flexible. I think I would have wished for there to be a soft 32ft reed rather than a loud one - but what do I know? I am thinking of the chancel organ at St Paul's and the gain made by returning the Contra Posaune 32 from the dome to the chancel in the 72/77 rebuild. (There seems these days, at some cathedrals, to be a tendency - (an expectancy, really) - for there to be loud 32ft reed tone on the last note of every hymn.) It would make splendid icing on the cake at Truro. 

[bam]

I agree, a very interesting solution to the problem of lack of space in the old case noted above. The main choruses are 'straight' and few cathedral organs had an independent pedal pre-1960.   I'm looking forward to hearing the result.

Also interesting is the reference to Schoenstein in the notes.  Their first UK instrument has been projected for several years at St Bartholomew the Great in London, but I can't see any signs of progress at present.

https://www.greatstbarts.com/worship/music-2/the-story-of-our-organs/

 

[contraviolone]

7 hours ago, James Atherton said:

you've hit the nail on the head with the word 'space'. Had we had more space in that ancient and tiny organ case the specification would have reflected that. As it is we have had to think hard about how we provide a flexible instrument for accompanying the liturgy, with all the appropriate gentle colour that was lacking in its predecessor, whilst still having a thrilling recital instrument. Extension has been used in the colouring stops, whilst keeping the integrity of the principal choruses. A 16' based Nave division, 8' based Great, Swell and Chaire. 

An independent pedal is not necessary for a cathedral organ, however the Nave on Pedal transfer will provide independence for the pedal line when required, as the Nave Grand Chorus is based on the 16' rather than 8' 

Thanks for that. I always thought even a modest independent flue chorus on the Pedal was a good idea? I'm not sure why a cathedral organ wouldn't need it? I suppose I must be a child of the 50s and 60s Organ Reform Movement. I will be very interested to hear the results, especially those 32' extensions. It just shouts out John Compton, which is no bad thing. I've always admired the Compton consoles as well. You should really go visit Downside Abbey!

[Hebridean]

This thread has been quite a challenge recently - I had a certain set of reactions when I first read the proposed specification, and then these feelings were followed by confusion and doubt as questions were raised (and I understand why) about the proposal's authenticity.  Now, the veracity of the proposals has been established and members are starting to ask technical questions, on James Atherton's invitation.  Quite a journey, to use that cliché.  

However, it does mean that I can go back to my original reaction and feeling when I read the specification, and considered the rationale which Nicholson's have helpfully provided.  That is, I think it is a truly imaginative and forward-thinking design that seems to me to take UK organ building in a very stimulating direction.  There is so much from the past - the design of the Chaire organ, the use of the polyphone, the inspiration from Cavaillé-Coll, to take just some obvious examples.  But these ideas and practices from the past are being brought together in a new combination, together with modern ideas and skills, in a unique situation and to address specific requirements and challenges.  The design shows a willingness to embrace and combine good ideas even if they may not be, or have been, regarded in some quarters as technically 'correct'.  I think this is genuinely innovative and, whilst I obviously 'get' the fact that we need to hear what the organ sounds like in a couple of years' time, I think at this stage, the builders, the cathedral musicians and the cathedral's wider community should be applauded for their vision and imagination.  Bravo.

[James Atherton]

12 hours ago, swalmsley said:

My question is as follows:

It would seem to be something of a scaling and voicing challenge for the four significant reeds:

Bombarde

Posaune

Trompette

Tuba

which are each available at at least three pitches and - mostly - across multiple divisions.

No doubt the generous acoustic is going to help "smooth the edges", but ultimately each rank is going to be optimised for one particular pitch in either manual or pedal.

So James' ideas for how this challenge is going to be met would be interesting....

 

that is a really interesting question, thank you. 

If one reads the specification in the way that I have designed it, one can see a story that links the lineage from Dallam/Harris of the C17th to N&Co in the C21st.

I have researched each incarnation of the organ, and have picked up a thread that leads us to our 2026 instrument. The Chaire is clearly Dallam/Harris. The Great is inspired by our finest Victorian organ builders, not least of all John Nicholson (whose scalings and voicing style are the inspiration for this division) The Pedal makes the best use of the limited space we have, in the way Arthur Harrison did. The Swell is designed to provide the best and most colourful tonal spectrum possible, inspired by Cavaillé-Coll (whose pipes we have hear in Malvern to study) and the Nave division is pure N&Co. The reeds will offer fiery brilliance in the Swell, Victorian elegance and brass on the Great and an all-out brass band for the Bombarde unit. 

The Tuba Mirabilis will be voiced on 18" wp and is to our new house-style. Brilliant and arresting, without any of the podgy tone other Tubas can display. 

Is that helpful?

[James Atherton]

7 hours ago, contraviolone said:

Thanks for that. I always thought even a modest independent flue chorus on the Pedal was a good idea? I'm not sure why a cathedral organ wouldn't need it? I suppose I must be a child of the 50s and 60s Organ Reform Movement. I will be very interested to hear the results, especially those 32' extensions. It just shouts out John Compton, which is no bad thing. I've always admired the Compton consoles as well. You should really go visit Downside Abbey!

thank you SO much for this. Come and hear it in the flesh. I will be very happy to show anyone who has a genuine interest in it, once it is built. You all know where you can find me.....

[James Atherton]

7 hours ago, Hebridean said:

This thread has been quite a challenge recently - I had a certain set of reactions when I first read the proposed specification, and then these feelings were followed by confusion and doubt as questions were raised (and I understand why) about the proposal's authenticity.  Now, the veracity of the proposals has been established and members are starting to ask technical questions, on James Atherton's invitation.  Quite a journey, to use that cliché.  

However, it does mean that I can go back to my original reaction and feeling when I read the specification, and considered the rationale which Nicholson's have helpfully provided.  That is, I think it is a truly imaginative and forward-thinking design that seems to me to take UK organ building in a very stimulating direction.  There is so much from the past - the design of the Chaire organ, the use of the polyphone, the inspiration from Cavaillé-Coll, to take just some obvious examples.  But these ideas and practices from the past are being brought together in a new combination, together with modern ideas and skills, in a unique situation and to address specific requirements and challenges.  The design shows a willingness to embrace and combine good ideas even if they may not be, or have been, regarded in some quarters as technically 'correct'.  I think this is genuinely innovative and, whilst I obviously 'get' the fact that we need to hear what the organ sounds like in a couple of years' time, I think at this stage, the builders, the cathedral musicians and the cathedral's wider community should be applauded for their vision and imagination.  Bravo.

Wow! Thank you SO much for this. When someone 'gets' what it is we have designed, it is an extremely humbling experience. You have absolutely understood how I have come to this design, and this makes me very happy. 

It isn't the 'norm' We don't do that at N&Co. Every new organ we build is different from the last, as every building and set of requirements differ. Why would we try to build something our forefathers have done? We can't! It would be a pastiche.

We build what we believe is the optimum solution for each client. We will not shift from this ethos under my watch.

 

[Peter Allison]

20 hours ago, S_L said:

I, so, wish they hadn't published the proposals!! It would save so much speculation by well intentioned amateur, 'back of fag packet' organ designers.

I do  understand the reasons behind publishing but I fear that this thread will go on and on until it has been thrashed to death!!!

Why can't people just wait until the scheme is realised? 

This is the best answer on the subject and the tread will prob turn out to be one of the longest on this forum😁

[ajsphead]

Couple of thoughts re the pedal 32 flues. I did wonder if one would be a "polyphone" and the other a "cube" so remaining independent. Also, I always wondered if a firm would be insightful enough to develop the polyphone into a 2 note unit to go all the way to CCCC overcoming the limitations related to scaling. Scaling the existing Trompette Harmonique into a Pedal Bombarde ? Only thing I would wish for is the crowning V+ rank Cymbale which Comptons did so expertly from a variety of ranks none of which you would have thought were great candidates in their own right.

[Jonathan]

James: an interesting specification, especially given (a) the space constraints with only use of the area on and within the screen, and (b) the current state of the finances of many English cathedrals.  I have two questions please.  Firstly, may we assume that console will remain in the same place as the 1971 console on the south side?   Secondly, can you please add some detail about the Aliquot VII rank mixture on the Pedal?  What will be its composition?  Will the pipes all be borrowed from numbers 3 and 5 and their extensions upwards or are you making some new pipes specifically for this stop, and if so, how may pipes?   Thank you.  Good luck and i look forward to hearing it in 2026.

[DaveHarries]

On 19/12/2023 at 09:37, James Atherton said:

The Nave division will be approximately where the previous West Great was. 

As someone who doesn't know the layout of the old organ (as I never saw a cross-section of it) whereabouts was that? In the main case or hidden in the triforium somewhere?

Dave

[ajsphead]

The Downes/HNB had 1 flue sound board at the upper level behind the West case, 1 behind the East case with the reeds in the middle.

[John Robinson]

23 hours ago, DaveHarries said:

As someone who doesn't know the layout of the old organ (as I never saw a cross-section of it) whereabouts was that? In the main case or hidden in the triforium somewhere?

Dave

The new Nave division is behind the perforated area of the case beneath the west front display pipes, where I understand the West Great was sited.

[PaulH]

It's an intriguing specification and the document linked from N&Co's website is very informative as to the thinking behind its concept.  Organ builders throughout history have had to contend with interesting space challenges - especially when there's no room for a complete independent pedal division - but some sound very impressive when properly voiced despite almost insurmountable problems.  I'll be interested to see how modern thinking applied to a polyphone-style multiple pitch pipe works out - polyphones are extremely effective given a good acoustic.

I'm really not qualified to comment on the details of the specification - I'm firmly in the "keen listener only" category.  I do think though that N&Co should be commended for putting forward something a bit different, and I'll certainly look forward to hearing it when complete.  Hopefully in the meantime James Atherton could continue his fascinating series of Youtube videos as this organ progresses through the workshop.

[Paul Walton]

A fascinating spec and very creative response to the challenges of the space. It's new and forward looking but with clear influence from the past. It's clearly designed to do the three jobs of a Cathedral organ:

accompany the choir - plenty of foundation, enclosed soft 16s (including a reed), enclosed Clarinet, 32' tone - all the things the 1971 organ didn't have. Yes, we all prefer two enclosed divisions but if there's no space, there's no space.

support the congregation - the 1971 organ by the nature of its sound gave the impression of being very loud but actually struggled to support a full building and was criticised almost immediately for this.

play repertoire - although third on the list, still clearly thought about. This is definitely making a statement as a 21st century Cathedral organ, not harking back to an early 20th, and acknowledging that (despite its shortcomings) there was good in the 1971 organ. Undoubtedly the right way for Gloucester with its varied history. I'm glad it's the flute mutations that are enclosed, for Alain, Messiaen, etc - there's no repertoire to my knowledge that calls for enclosed principal mutations.

And all that in so little a space. Many hours must have been spent. I'm sure some might like such things as a Pedal Mixture or Great Cornet, but in that space what is there will be used far more often than they ever would. Forgive yet more questions, but two thoughts, if I may (I'm sure they've already been considered):

Might having the Voix H available on the Solo to combine with the Clarinette give a more convincing Cromorne to dialogue against the Sw cornet?

I can't see a way of having a 4' reed on the pedal for the right foot if the pedal divide is being used. Maybe impossible (and maybe not wanted!) as the soft Solo reeds are borrowed from the Swell, but could a Solo Octave to Pedal (which we're having a bit further down the M5!) make that work?

Very much looking forward to hearing and hopefully playing it in a few years. Congratulations!

Paul

[sotto]

On 21/12/2023 at 21:52, John Robinson said:

The new Nave division is behind the perforated area of the case beneath the west front display pipes, where I understand the West Great was sited.

I always thought that was where the West Positive was located

[James Atherton]

On 19/12/2023 at 12:19, Martin Cooke said:

I have nothing very much to add about this other than to say that I think it's a very interesting scheme indeed. Like any organ, it will always sound best at the hands of those who play it daily, but I suspect that many will declare it a masterpiece once complete and settled. Of course there are some who will bemoan the adoption of such a degree of borrowing and extension, but this is a real 'horses for courses' design to suit a very particular situation. And let's face it, borrowing and extension was the name of the game in all those Compton instruments which are often spoken of in hushed and respectful terms. It seems to me to be hugely flexible. I think I would have wished for there to be a soft 32ft reed rather than a loud one - but what do I know? I am thinking of the chancel organ at St Paul's and the gain made by returning the Contra Posaune 32 from the dome to the chancel in the 72/77 rebuild. (There seems these days, at some cathedrals, to be a tendency - (an expectancy, really) - for there to be loud 32ft reed tone on the last note of every hymn.) It would make splendid icing on the cake at Truro. 

Thank you, Martin. 

The Pedal Aliquot is in fact a compound stop, and gives the effect of a soft 32' reed when drawn with fairly full registrations. We have used this trick at Radley and the effect is incredible. It is inspired by Compton's Bass Cornets or Harmonics of 32' (he used several different names) So that meant the Bombardon can really 'roar' in the bass! Hope that's helpful?

 

[Martin Cooke]

9 hours ago, James Atherton said:

Thank you, Martin. 

The Pedal Aliquot is in fact a compound stop, and gives the effect of a soft 32' reed when drawn with fairly full registrations. We have used this trick at Radley and the effect is incredible. It is inspired by Compton's Bass Cornets or Harmonics of 32' (he used several different names) So that meant the Bombardon can really 'roar' in the bass! Hope that's helpful?

Hello James - thank you very much for that and, indeed, even more of a 'thank you' for your patience and preparedness to engage with members of this and other forums.

Yes, I've no experience at all of such a stop personally but I should have realised that that's what it was there for. I suppose I always think of the Gloria of Psalm 150 with the Stanford chant as the acid test for a soft 32' reed, underpinning a closed full swell at 'As it was...' 

What a wonderful project this is! Shamefully, Gloucester has never really been on a convenient or obvious axis for me in terms of visiting, but with some friends earlier this year, we came on a 'stained glass holiday' for a few days to see glass by Tom Denny, and of course, we called at Gloucester to see the Finzi and Gurney windows. I could look at those every day and not grow tired of them. I suspect the new organ will cast a similar spell, and, if I'm spared, I shall want to come and hear it. 

James - I have no idea at all about the 'business angle' of this suggestion, but if you and your colleagues at N&Co thought it appropriate, perhaps you might look to a new DVD project for Gloucester to include some of the (organ) building work as well as the finished article. The splendid Priory Records series is now completely out of date for several of their instruments but they brought, and continue to bring, great pleasure. Just a thought... and thank you, again.

 

[DaveHarries]

9 hours ago, Martin Cooke said:

Yes, I've no experience at all of such a stop personally [.....]

I have never heard of the Aliquot and I will be interested to hear this one when I get a chance.

Dave

[James Atherton]

On 20/12/2023 at 20:32, Jonathan said:

James: an interesting specification, especially given (a) the space constraints with only use of the area on and within the screen, and (b) the current state of the finances of many English cathedrals.  I have two questions please.  Firstly, may we assume that console will remain in the same place as the 1971 console on the south side?   Secondly, can you please add some detail about the Aliquot VII rank mixture on the Pedal?  What will be its composition?  Will the pipes all be borrowed from numbers 3 and 5 and their extensions upwards or are you making some new pipes specifically for this stop, and if so, how may pipes?   Thank you.  Good luck and i look forward to hearing it in 2026.

Hi Jonathan. Thank you for your kind remarks and your interest in the new organ. 

Re the Aliquot, this is a compound stop, invented by John Compton. He called them various things Harmonics 32' Bass Corner 32' and I think also Harmonics of 32' There might be others... 

Originally ours was going to be called Aliquot 32' However the layout of the console dictates that the Pedal flues will be on one jamb, and the reeds on another. A 32' stop at the top of the flues looked odd, so we decided on Aliquot VII. 

The composition is such that if one plays bottom C on the pedal the following notes play

C @ 16'

G @ 10 2/3'

C @ 8'

E @ 6 2/3'

G @ 5 1/3'

A# @ 4 1/7'

D @ 3 8/9' 

At the moment I am not sure of the derivations. We will experiment once we have the rest of the organ in the building to see what works best. 

 

The console remains in the organ loft, more details of that to be revealed in good time.....

 

Hope that is useful?

 

James