Pronunciation of Hele?

[pwhodges]

How is the name Hele, as in the organ builders, pronounced?  I have come across both "heel" and "hayleh" in different contexts, but can't find which applies here.

Thanks,
Paul

[Rowland Wateridge]

Interesting!  We once had a discussion about the pronunciation of Ley, as in Henry Ley, raised by Vox Humana (incidentally it seems a long time since we heard from him).  I largely relied on Lionel Dakers’ recollection of HL visiting St George’s Chapel, Windsor, and you confirmed ‘Lee’ as correct.  I have only ever heard Hele pronounced as ‘heel’. This time I rely on Roy Massey!

[pwhodges]

Too easy...  I found that the remnant of the company is part of "Midland Organ, Hele & Company", which is still active (though it would be hard to tell from their web site) in Leicestershire.  I rang the number on the one webpage, and had a chat with a nice man who confirmed that it is indeed "heel".

Paul

[Martin Cooke]

Absolutely.

[timothyguntrip]

This could almost lead to another thread about pronunciation of stop names… 

I say Gemshorn with a hard ‘G’ (as in go) but my colleague says it with a ‘J’ (as in gist)…

and then there’s Posaune! 

[S_L]

11 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:

This time I rely on Roy Massey!

I hope this doesn't cause any offence, it, certainly isn't meant to!!

I went to an Organ Recital given by Roy Massey quite a few years ago, when he was still at Hereford. I won't say where the recital was! It consisted of quite a number of shorter pieces along with a couple of  'bigger' pieces, something flashy with a lot of notes and something to get your teeth into. The church was full and Roy talked about each piece, in his own inimitable style, before playing it. I have to say he played a lot of wrong notes but it was one of the very best recitals I have ever been to. It was good humoured, Roy tells a good yarn!, and the music was mostly approachable and that which might have been a little difficult for some was preceded by a story and was short.

I bumped into Roy years later in Tewksbury Abbey. He was his old inimitable self, hugely gracious and, again, with a good yarn to tell. We chatted for what seemed ages and I mentioned the recital I had heard and he grinned "I bet I played a lot of wrong notes!". I was pleased to be able to tell him how much I had enjoyed the programme - and agreed with him about the wrong notes!!!

I remember thinking that if all organ recitals were like this more people might appreciate the instrument more!

"The third movement of this piece is very suitable for weddings and funerals - you just play it slower at funerals!!" (any suggestions?)

[Martin Cooke]

10 hours ago, timothyguntrip said:

This could almost lead to another thread about pronunciation of stop names… 

I say Gemshorn with a hard ‘G’ (as in go) but my colleague says it with a ‘J’ (as in gist)…

and then there’s Posaune! 

Indeed. I called in one of our pupils from Germany once to solve this as I don't know anything about German pronunciation. She was very definite that its was Pos-ow-ner. I must admit that I do tend to call it Pos-orn. Then there is Violone which I have heard pronounced Violon-ey. And Richard Popplewell (Holiday Course for Organists at the RAM, Summer 1973) referred to the short piece I wanted some help with as a Choral-ey Prelude! We could get into Diapason as well. Isn't there a famous poem that mentions 'diapasons'? I think in that context I have heard it pronounced di-AP-ason as opposed to diaPAson as I suspect most of us organists do. 

[Colin Pykett]

Sir Walter Alcock insisted that his name be pronounced as in 'alcohol' with the short 'a'.  One can speculate with little difficulty as to the reasons why, but 'toujours la politesse' forbids me from doing so here.  Those who wish to introduce his works at their organ concerts, please note ...

[Colin Pykett]

5 hours ago, S_L said:

I hope this doesn't cause any offence, it, certainly isn't meant to!!

I went to an Organ Recital given by Roy Massey quite a few years ago, when he was still at Hereford. I won't say where the recital was! It consisted of quite a number of shorter pieces along with a couple of  'bigger' pieces, something flashy with a lot of notes and something to get your teeth into. The church was full and Roy talked about each piece, in his own inimitable style, before playing it. I have to say he played a lot of wrong notes but it was one of the very best recitals I have ever been to. It was good humoured, Roy tells a good yarn!, and the music was mostly approachable and that which might have been a little difficult for some was preceded by a story and was short.

I bumped into Roy years later in Tewksbury Abbey. He was his old inimitable self, hugely gracious and, again, with a good yarn to tell. We chatted for what seemed ages and I mentioned the recital I had heard and he grinned "I bet I played a lot of wrong notes!". I was pleased to be able to tell him how much I had enjoyed the programme - and agreed with him about the wrong notes!!!

I remember thinking that if all organ recitals were like this more people might appreciate the instrument more!

 

At first sight it might seem odd that one should excuse wrong notes from the hands of a professional player, and I must admit that in my younger days they rather made me squirm, especially as I had usually paid good money for the privilege of hearing them and I had hoped to hear someone play better than I could myself.  Now, however, I'm not so sure.  It is indeed impressive when one hears immaculate note-perfect performances of difficult pieces, especially when played at a fair lick, but today it's sometimes technology which is pulling the wool over our eyes (or ears).  On youtube, for example, one can see this quite often and it also applies to some recorded performances on CDs or videos.  I'm pretty sure that some players use previously recorded MIDI tracks which have been edited to remove the blemishes, both in terms of the notes and their original timings.  The performance that you see is then of the player simply pressing the keys, quite possibly on a silent console, to conform to the edited track.  I get alerted to this when the performance sounds 'wooden' with little or no deviation from perfect (and sterile) metronomic timing, which is the regrettable legacy of MIDI to the music profession.  Another dead give-away is when the player is wearing headphones, which I would wager good money are being fed with the MIDI 'click track' sync signal.  (Why would you wear phones otherwise when playing a pipe organ?)

Once I deliberately did this myself to demonstrate to the audience the ability to record a performance on a recently rebuilt electric action pipe organ which offered that facility.  Halfway through I rose from the console and walked away while the instrument continued to 'play' itself, much like a player piano would have done in days of yore, though it got drowned out by the laughter and applause once the audience had recovered from the shock ...

So nowadays I prefer to put up with the odd blemish in a genuinely real-time performance in favour of a more musical interpretation overall.

 

[AndrewG]

At a cathedral near me the DoM was unable to give his recital at their summer organ festival for some unexpected reason a few years ago.  So pre-recorded it and had it played back as if “live” on the day. It didn’t feel right at the time (and not something they’ve repeated). 

Everything online and CD etc is so perfect these days that it is far preferable (to me at least) to hear things played live.  Mistakes and all.  Although it amazes me how few glaring mistakes get made by the pros in recitals.  There are often tiny blemishes that I suspect vast majority listening wouldn’t notice (unless the listener knows a piece intimately - as in I suspect many members of this forum).   When I was a chorister it was almost unheard of for the organist to make a mistake in a service accompanying - despite the tiny amount of time rehearsing each day. (Most days we didn’t sing with the organ until the service itself). Which amazes me even more than the recitals - which I am sure are long practiced. 
 

As an amateur I play lots of wrong notes.  But it often surprises me how few get noticed by the audience - when as the player they seem so glaring and obvious.  But keeping going (and performing) rather than correcting seems to disguise a lot!   (Although my teacher seemed to be able to notice even the slightest deviation from the written page!) Maybe my audience are just kind. 

[john carter]

3 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:

I'm pretty sure that some players use previously recorded MIDI tracks which have been edited to remove the blemishes, both in terms of the notes and their original timings. 

 

Colin, so you are "pretty sure" that players have edited midi tracks?  I am "pretty sure" some players are interested enough to do whatever they can to improve their performance.  Why be so negative about it?  I would encourage any young player to use whatever skill and technology they can, in order to interpret the music in the way they choose.  If that involves wearing headphones, editing midi tracks, stepping through 200 combinations or playing in socks, I don't care!

[Martin Cooke]

Well, this 'pronunciation of Hele' thread has certainly grown legs!

 

[S_L]

1 hour ago, Martin Cooke said:

Well, this 'pronunciation of Hele' thread has certainly grown legs!

 

In the very best traditions of the board!!!

 

[Rowland Wateridge]

1 hour ago, Martin Cooke said:

Well, this 'pronunciation of Hele' thread has certainly grown legs!

Yes, in best traditions of the Board.  I thought I might add something about Hele themselves.   They were a prolific builder in the West Country and beyond.  I confess I was unaware that the name still exists as ‘Midland Organ, Hele & Company’.  My trusty 1922 edition of ‘The Dictionary of Organs and Organists’ (I’m aware that there are earlier editions) contains a full-page advertisement for Hele & Company Ltd of Plymouth, Managing Director J C Hele, BMus Oxon, FRCO, and three other directors named Hele.  They advertised new organs “of any size, for any purpose” as well as their other services of reconstruction, repairs, cleaning and tuning.  On the last point, they proudly state “Tuners of the organs in the Cathedrals of Winchester, Chichester and Exeter”.  They also describe themselves as “Consulting organ architects and Specialists in tone production”.

Mr J C Hele held seven organist’s appointments in Plymouth and Devonport from 1873 to 1918 - a hands-on organist and organ builder!

I remember the firm producing a small free-standing organ with full length pipes either side of the central console which was regularly advertised last century in Organists’ Review.

Their considerable output is listed on NPOR - 644 listings - not checked for detail.

Of the cathedrals, they added some couplers at Exeter, but no tonal work evidently.  Their substantial 1905 additions at Winchester were subsequently considered controversial and almost totally discarded in the 1986-88 rebuild by H&H, with the exception of their 32’ Bombarde which, paradoxically, is possibly their best known individual stop. They had rebuilt Chichester Cathedral organ in 1904 and that has generally been hailed as a successful and sympathetic restoration.  It may well have been the catalyst for their appointment at Winchester one year later.

[peterdoughty]

14 hours ago, S_L said:

I went to an Organ Recital given by Roy Massey quite a few years ago, when he was still at Hereford.

I went over from Belfast for a long weekend coach trip to Gloucester, Worcester, Hereford and environs with the Ulster Society of Organists and Choirmasters, back in the spring of 1995. Roy Massey met us off the coach at Lugwardine for lunch at the Crown and Anchor, and then a short recital on the lovely and relatively new instrument in St Peter's which he'd helped to design. After that, to the Cathedral at Hereford. He conducted us fairly briskly, and quite volubly as I remember, up the nave. Just as he was unhooking the ropes around the nave altar so we could all walk straight through under the corona, the hourly request for a few moments' silent contemplation started to be made over the loudspeakers. Not so sotto voce from our host: "Oh my God, he's going to pray."

[John Robinson]

22 hours ago, timothyguntrip said:

This could almost lead to another thread about pronunciation of stop names… 

I say Gemshorn with a hard ‘G’ (as in go) but my colleague says it with a ‘J’ (as in gist)…

and then there’s Posaune! 

I have always pronounced 'Gemshorn' with a hard G on the grounds that it is based on a German word 'Gaemse' = chamois (chamois horn).
Posaune is also a German word, so pronounced correctly as 'po za-oon eh'.

[pwhodges]

And to swivel back to the thread title, until I was corrected here my head-canon was that the name Hele looked kinda Germanic, so I was inclined to pronounce it accordingly as two syllables!

Paul

[Rowland Wateridge]

There is a village named Hele, north-east of Exeter.  

Google links numerous websites on the subject of Hele as a surname, but all agree that it appears to be of Anglo-Saxon origin and dominant in Devon and adjacent counties.  The same is largely true of the output of Hele’s as organbuilders, but they are also widely represented by their instruments elsewhere.

For the place name this one is possibly most authoritative:

http://epns.nottingham.ac.uk/browse/id/53284f0ab47fc4097e000aa0

[keyplayer]

On 11/10/2023 at 10:43, Colin Pykett said:

I get alerted to this when the performance sounds 'wooden' with little or no deviation from perfect (and sterile) metronomic timing, which is the regrettable legacy of MIDI to the music profession.

While this often can be the case, a lot of us who work extensively with midi will go to considerable lengths to make subtle timing adjustments - ( hopefully ) countering this effect!

 

[A G Preston]

On 11/10/2023 at 08:50, Martin Cooke said:

Isn't there a famous poem that mentions 'diapasons'? I think in that context I have heard it pronounced di-AP-ason as opposed to diaPAson as I suspect most of us organists do. 

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44185/a-song-for-st-cecilias-day-1687

[Martin Cooke]

Thanks, AGP, for that. I don't think I knew the Dryden. But it's come to me that it's the Milton/Parry 'Blest Pair of Sirens' that mentions 'in perfect diapason.' I must have been making it up when I thought there was a plural usage in poetry somewhere, I suspect!

[DaveHarries]

I always pronounce "Hele" as if you were giving a command to a dog (ie. "Heel!")

Dave