Are we dying on our feet?

[Martin Cooke]

I'm sorry to go for a dramatic headline, and I wrote along similar lines some years ago, but correspondence on this forum seems to have almost died out, with just a handful of us contributing topics and comments. As I write, there are about 30 people, mostly 'guests' viewing the forum. Could some of you not consider joining and starting some new topics? I think I speak for all existing forum members in saying that we would love it if you did! 

[carrick]

It's not just on here. I have noticed it across all organ forums/groups across the internet. It's always the same few people posting and nobody else bothers. Makes me wonder why they people bother to join!

[Bruce Buchanan]

Always keen to keep abreast of technology and being amongst the laziest members of this Forum, I asked ChatGTP for a subject; this is what he/she/it proposed.

Title: "Balancing Tradition and Innovation: Organ Building in the 21st Century"

Question: "To organists and organ builders alike, how do you navigate the fine line between preserving traditional pipe organ craftsmanship and embracing modern technology and design innovations in the construction and maintenance of organs? What are the key challenges and opportunities you've encountered in this delicate balancing act?"

[Bruce Buchanan]

Of course, I thought it only polite to ask the bot to respond to its own question. He/she/it said:

 

Your question is excellent and would certainly spark an interesting discussion among organists and organ builders. It addresses a crucial aspect of the organ world where tradition meets innovation. It would encourage participants to share their experiences, insights, and perspectives on how they strike a balance between preserving tradition and incorporating modern advancements in organ craftsmanship and technology. This topic is sure to generate valuable insights and foster a productive exchange of ideas.

[Colin Pykett]

Having just this minute posted on another topic I thought I'd contribute to this one before signing out.

For what it's worth:

@ Martin Cooke: Yes, I think we are dying out.  If not, then I don't know what else a dying forum could possibly look like.

@carrick: I don't know why people bother to join either, if they aren't intending to contribute.  It's an open forum so they could save a few hundred nanoJoules of biological energy (and, indeed, electrical energy) by not bothering to join if all they want to do is lurk and read.

@Bruce Buchanan: I have difficulty agreeing with your self-analysis of laziness.  More importantly, I greatly value your contributions.  (NB As those who know me will attest, I am not given to sycophancy ... )

Incidentally, your BOT's purple prose shows just how pathetic AI is.  It's always so easy to spot when reading such drivel.  The real danger of AI is the increasing number of people who take such stuff seriously, especially those in positions of power who have no independent means of verifying what is dished up because their own grey matter is so akin to a bowl of spaghetti on the subjects they are supposed to be dealing with (aka 'expert at').  Am I thinking, inter alia, of politicians?  Surely not ...

-------

The days of traditional fora are long over, having been overtaken by social media.  But I find the superficiality, silliness and (often) sheer nonsense of what one finds there to be scarcely worth the bother, plus other factors such as the difficulty of searching for the bits you want.  But then, that's social media for you ...

To be honest, I think this forum ought to be shut down, but until it is, I'll continue to annoy people from time time.

 

[sbarber49]

I don't often post anything - not being confident that my ill-informed opinions are of any value. However I find this forum very valuable and get lots of information from it that I couldn't get anywhere else. PLEASE keep it open!

I'm not sure that the number of posts is any measure of a forum's usefulness. I used to be on a US forum which had huge numbers of posts - so many I abandoned it - but the posts were of very little interest.

A way of showing that we found a particular post helpful would be useful, I think.

[John Robinson]

5 hours ago, sbarber49 said:

I don't often post anything - not being confident that my ill-informed opinions are of any value. However I find this forum very valuable and get lots of information from it that I couldn't get anywhere else. PLEASE keep it open!

I'm not sure that the number of posts is any measure of a forum's usefulness. I used to be on a US forum which had huge numbers of posts - so many I abandoned it - but the posts were of very little interest.

A way of showing that we found a particular post helpful would be useful, I think.

In all honesty, I feel the same.
I can't play the organ, though I have had a lifelong interest in its music and its design and construction.  I could ask lots of questions, but I think they would be found to be rather boring by the majority!

[bam]

What is posted is usually worth reading - I would much rather not have to wade through lots of 'non-posts'.  As an example I found the thread on the new Gloucester Cathedral organ fascinating, especially when read in conjunction with 'Baroque Tricks' and the booklet produced at the time of the HN&B instrument, when it was clear that those involved were absolutely convinced that what they were doing was right.

[peterdoughty]

On 18/09/2023 at 17:25, sbarber49 said:

I find this forum very valuable and get lots of information from it that I couldn't get anywhere else. PLEASE keep it open!

I'm not sure that the number of posts is any measure of a forum's usefulness.

Seconding these comments. I've always thought of this forum's value as resting very significantly in the sheer accumulation of knowledge, facts and reminiscences within its pages, and only secondarily as a conversational space. Not that I don't like the threads with plenty of photos of beautiful organ cases, or YouTube videos, because I love those too. This forum needs to be kept online, of course, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm never sure whether, for example, anyone has any interest in starting a thread, or multiples, about our enjoyment or otherwise of various individual recordings or series we've encountered over the years. I'm not a working organist, just an amateur, so I can't regale anyone with any playing expertise whatever, but I've amassed a LOT of listening time since I first started buying CDs back in 1992. I stand ready to give unsolicited and inexpert reviews if needed.

I'm not a churchgoer either, for example, so in recent years I've had to teach myself the very basics of what Evensong even means in the context of Christian belief and liturgy - largely through reading Wikipedia and other websites. I had thought of asking some questions here, but it's not primarily organ-related, and I was concerned about being off-topic. (This is what happens when you blind-buy one of the recent and marvellous St John's Cambridge 'Magnificat' CDs and a whole new world opens up.)

If people feel that extremely non-technical questions or discussions would be welcome, I can certainly start a few in the fullness of time. Meanwhile, thanks to you all for all the previous threads and material here. This place is a gold-mine.

[contraviolone]

8 hours ago, bam said:

What is posted is usually worth reading - I would much rather not have to wade through lots of 'non-posts'.  As an example I found the thread on the new Gloucester Cathedral organ fascinating, especially when read in conjunction with 'Baroque Tricks' and the booklet produced at the time of the HN&B instrument, when it was clear that those involved were absolutely convinced that what they were doing was right.

Contrasting with the situation today, when It is clearly thought that everything was wrong!

[peter ellis]

On 18/09/2023 at 21:27, Martin Cooke said:

I'm sorry to go for a dramatic headline, and I wrote along similar lines some years ago, but correspondence on this forum seems to have almost died out, with just a handful of us contributing topics and comments. As I write, there are about 30 people, mostly 'guests' viewing the forum. Could some of you not consider joining and starting some new topics? I think I speak for all existing forum members in saying that we would love it if you did! 

I'm back (after 12 years it seems) - does that help? 

[Hebridean]

And I have rejoined also, recognising the fairness of Martin’s challenge.  I have no expertise but I value this forum and so will try to contribute where I can. 
 

[PaulH]

I too am a long-time "lurker" and don't contribute much, perhaps because I'm self-consciously amongst a bunch of rather lovely professionals who know an awful lot more than I do!  I'm not an organist (although I did study it many, many years ago under Desmond Swinburne), and growing up as a chorister (I can probably still recite the BCP services from heart!) knocked all semblence of religion out of me. Yet the organ has always been inexplicably "part" of me - perhaps because I work in digital technology I'm still entranced by the sheer ingenuity which organ builders of past times employed to make wind and wood do the most incredible things. My piano teacher when much younger was Raymond Sunderland, through whom I got to know Denis Thurlow and as a young teen I spent a lot of happy hours inside organs around Bridlington being shown the intricacies of tuning, regulating and voicing.  And (to misquote Alan Plater) I do enjoy the odd Toccata.

I do hope the forum can survive - there's not many like it. And it is very thought provoking at times!  I guess it's down to us all though to make it survive.  I've an idea for a thread, so I'll dig out the necessary photos and post in a couple of days.

[S_L]

2 hours ago, PaulH said:

 My piano teacher when much younger was Raymond Sunderland............

...................... of blessed memory. An absolute gentleman and a fine organist. I remember sitting in his front room, in Bridlington, as he played to me his recording, about to be released, of Garth Edmundson's 'Apostolic Symphony'. If I remember rightly the disc was savaged by the critics - completely unjustifiably in my view!! Of course, he wasn't part of the 'smart-London-set', nor a cathedral organist! I still have the record, I have it next to me - with the Fanfare he wrote for his daughter's wedding in 1972, the three chorale improvisations of Karg-Elert (Op 65, Nos. 5 & 21 - Op 75, No. 2) and 'Legend' as well as the Chorale Prelude on 'Urbs  Hierusalem beata' of Healy Wilan.

 

Welcome, Paul.

[Hebridean]

I knew Raymond’s brother Denis for a few years at the end of his life.  Denis was an organist as well, though he said to me that he was not in the same class as his brother.  He was a gentleman, too.  He played the William Andrews organ in St Michael’s, Mytholmroyd (Ted Hughes’ birthplace) and cared for it very much - adding, if I remember rightly, the pedal reeds.  The organ was very badly damaged by flooding a few years ago but has been restored.

 

[john carter]

Returning to the title of this thread, Martin Cooke has done us a great service.  Suddenly the forum has woken up!  Let's hope it continues to attract more contributions.

[peter ellis]

I woke up so much I put myself back on the local dep organists list. If Martin had been any more forceful I'd probably be recording the complete Bach this time next week. 

[Martin Cooke]

It's very good indeed to see some renewed activity and some new names coming to the fore.

Please feel that anyone can raise any topic about organs or organ music regardless of how basic it sounds or how inexperienced you feel. Nobody here is going to knock you back or reply in critical or disbelieving tones so if you come across an interesting organ, or you wonder why some pistons are square and others are round, or you want to identify or get hold of a copy of a piece of music you have heard, ask away. And we're not even fierce if you go off-topic - but it's great to start new threads even if they spring from current or old ones. And, ok, you feel a bit of a duffer if no-one replies to a thread - as happens to me quite frequently, but no need to be discouraged. 

And do, please, tell us about experiences you have have had, playing or listening or organ building or meeting people, and new music you have discovered. There is quite a lot of new organ music about at the moment. I'm a real sucker for buying music, both new and second hand, and have a strong relationship with all the free sites too, but I am always looking for something new or unusual. I will try to get some posts going to draw attention to new publications that may be of interest. 

Oh, and incidentally, we're not completely averse to occasional discussions on digital instruments - he said, controversially - they are a fact of life and lots of us play them at home and at church... and the blogs etc on the websites of the major players in the UK are often very interesting. Actually, in the case of Church Organ World (Makin, Johannus, Rodgers & Copeman Hart + sheet organ music) it's Keith Harrington's weekly newsletter that carries useful commentary about new music etc - and it's worth writing to him to ask to be included in the mailing. Whereas, the Viscount website has a blog and info about new installations which is always interesting to keep up with.) 

[Dafydd y Garreg Wen]

Delighted at this revival. Thank you, Martin, for bringing it about.

[peter ellis]

On 26/09/2023 at 18:04, Martin Cooke said:

It's very good indeed to see some renewed activity and some new names coming to the fore.

Please feel that anyone can raise any topic about organs or organ music regardless of how basic it sounds or how inexperienced you feel. Nobody here is going to knock you back or reply in critical or disbelieving tones so if you come across an interesting organ, or you wonder why some pistons are square and others are round, or you want to identify or get hold of a copy of a piece of music you have heard, ask away. And we're not even fierce if you go off-topic - but it's great to start new threads even if they spring from current or old ones. And, ok, you feel a bit of a duffer if no-one replies to a thread - as happens to me quite frequently, but no need to be discouraged. 

And do, please, tell us about experiences you have have had, playing or listening or organ building or meeting people, and new music you have discovered. There is quite a lot of new organ music about at the moment. I'm a real sucker for buying music, both new and second hand, and have a strong relationship with all the free sites too, but I am always looking for something new or unusual. I will try to get some posts going to draw attention to new publications that may be of interest. 

Oh, and incidentally, we're not completely averse to occasional discussions on digital instruments - he said, controversially - they are a fact of life and lots of us play them at home and at church... and the blogs etc on the websites of the major players in the UK are often very interesting. Actually, in the case of Church Organ World (Makin, Johannus, Rodgers & Copeman Hart + sheet organ music) it's Keith Harrington's weekly newsletter that carries useful commentary about new music etc - and it's worth writing to him to ask to be included in the mailing. Whereas, the Viscount website has a blog and info about new installations which is always interesting to keep up with.) 

Glad you're not completely averse to digitals - here in Australia we have a few concert halls without pipes and often my choice is no organ at all or hire in a digital. I've brought in digitals, the public and performers loved it and hundreds of people get to experience the instrument. The pipe police who have complained to me after the performance are yet to offer a solution of where to find the money to buy a "real one".

 

[Martin Cooke]

Understood completely. I'm bound to say that my tolerance of them isn't shared by too many members here, so we mustn't push it, as it were!

[Colin Pykett]

On 26/09/2023 at 09:04, Martin Cooke said:

... we're not completely averse to occasional discussions on digital instruments - he said, controversially - they are a fact of life and lots of us play them at home and at church... and the blogs etc on the websites of the major players in the UK are often very interesting. Actually, in the case of Church Organ World (Makin, Johannus, Rodgers & Copeman Hart + sheet organ music) it's Keith Harrington's weekly newsletter that carries useful commentary about new music etc - and it's worth writing to him to ask to be included in the mailing. Whereas, the Viscount website has a blog and info about new installations which is always interesting to keep up with.) 

There seems to be a quietly-evolving situation regarding digitals on this forum.  Not all that long ago I recall the 'rules' saying quite explicitly (in large letters IIRC) that this was not allowed.  But having just checked again, I can no longer find this mentioned, assuming I'm looking in the right places.  Within reason, in my view it's sensible of course, given their acceptance by a large number (the majority?) of players and their presence everywhere from cathedrals downwards.  However it would be unfortunate (but again, only in my view) if the subject escalated in prominence to rival the rather dreary discussions about topics such as how to repair ancient Hammonds and Leslies, whether digital clones of them are as good, etc, etc, that one sees elsewhere.

[Barry Oakley]

Martin (Cooke) has raised an interesting if not worrying topic. I see the pipe organ and its music in this country in something of a cleft stick. Unfortunately the UK is now a nation where “we don’t do God,” borne out by official statistics. Unfortunately too, the pipe organ seems inextricably linked for all the wrong reasons with the church and therefore God. Dare I suggest that contributors to this forum all know this.

But I often ask myself why it is that in continental Europe and particularly in its Catholic cathedral churches, people turn up, often in large numbers well before Mass to first listen to what in reality is an organ recital, an overture to the main event.

I wonder too if UK formal education is a key factor affecting appreciation of the organ; music as a subject having largely (so I’m told), disappeared from state school curriculums, that’s unless it’s twang and bang time. If one is privileged to attend a fee-paying school, music and opportunities for instrumental tuition, often including the organ, are seen as educational essentials.

Then perhaps there’s social media and the mainstream air-waves factor?

[S_L]

Oh Barry. We've been here so many times before and I don't know the answer!

I know that, when I play a sortie at the end of Mass, the good sisters sit, quietly, and listen to it and, because the sisters are sitting there, the congregation do also. I don't know whether that is engrained in French culture or whatever. We don't have music before Mass as the sisters sing Terce (?), in procession around the cloister entering the Abbey church to sing the Latin Plainsong introit of the day (accompanied by the organ - which is the first time the organ is heard).

The organ is inextricably linked to church. My neighbour calls my house organ 'a church organ' and yet it could be in a concert hall. He finds that I have such an instrument in my house amusing - yet he doesn't consider my 'cello, propped up in the corner or the organ room, in the slightest amusing. 

I do find it frightening that quality music education seems to be in the hands of the public (i.e. private!) schools in the UK. I have told this before but an ex-student of mine read music at Oxford. At that particular time he was the ONLY student in the music faculty who had been educated in the state system. I don't know whether that says something about the state system or Oxford. When I was at the RCM there were a considerable number of us from the state sector but, and this may be fiction, we were always told that the RAM was where the 'public school' students went. Similarly, my Cambridge college, in the 1970's was well known for its prejudice towards the state system. But organ scholars, almost exclusively, came from the public schools.

I think the likes of Ann Lapwood are making huge strides towards bringing the organ into a more mainstream arena. But did you notice that her 'Proms' programme drew no comments from members here? And the vitriol towards her on another site, largely from organists is shameful. Do you remember the dreadful comments here about the dress sense of Cameron Carpenter? He wore an earring (I wear an earring!) and that, together with his presentation condemned him to almost all here present!   Dare I suggest, the second time today I have stuck my neck out, that we, you and I, are partly to blame for the unpopularity of the organ. Perhaps we need to do more. Perhaps we need to be more approachable, encouraging and enthusiastic to young people interested or who want to learn! But then, of course, there are the barriers to a young person practising. Rightly so, we have to be more conscious of safeguarding today. When I was 14/15 the organist of the local church would let me loose on the organ after Mass and tell me to lock up when I'd finished! Can you see that happening today. And some organists have tarnished our reputation by their behaviour!

And so on.................................... I don't have an answer - I wish I did!

 

[Barry Oakley]

We’re certainly, like others following this topic, on the same wave-length. Like you, Stephen, I don’t have an answer. But I certainly believe the decline in proper music education in state schools has a lot to answer for. Little wonder a large number of our younger organists are products of the public school system. Of the perhaps better-known schools, most of them have chapels containing lovely inspiring organs. Nicholson’s have fairly recently completed one such at Radley and I think they have another on their books yet to be built or rebuilt.

There is much talk in Westminster’s corridors of “Levelling Up.” Unfortunately it’s currently all about a certain railway line. But the concept of levelling up certainly presents an opportunity for a potential government to raise the profile of music in state schools by insisting it’s on every curriculum in every comprehensive. That really would be levelling up!

Maybe our cathedrals or larger parish churches, in terms of raising the organ’s profile amongst state school pupils, could lay on, say, regular quarterly recitals for school groups. It would give the organ exposure to young people at an impressionable age.

Exposure to live classical music used to happen in Hull when I was at school. I go back to the era of the former Yorkshire Symphony Orchestra (YSO). These occasions would happen on an afternoon when the YSO was rehearsing for an evening concert. Selected parties from every city secondary sector, public, grammar and secondary-modern, girls and boys would be taken to the City Hall to listen and learn. This would invariably involve them being addressed by the orchestra’s conductor to explain certain aspects of a piece of music. It was something to look forward to.