Norwich Cathedral

[Martin Cooke]

Was anyone from the forum present at Thomas Trotter's recital yesterday? 40% of the pipework, according to H&H, is new, so it must sound quite different. It would be good to hear comment, if possible.

But, I watched the Evensong and Re-dedication on YouTube today. This was the second time in the recent past that I have seen a clergyperson throw water at a brand new instrument! The other occasion was the dedication of the new console at St Thomas, Fifth Avenue. What do I know, but is this really sensible? At Norwich, not only did the Bishop scatter water at the organ case, but he censed it, and then bashed it with his crosier, like a new Bishop does to gain entry to their cathedral at their enthronement. Again, is this appropriate? Can you imagine dedicating the Bishop's new car, during which the Bishop cracks the end of the crozier into the driver's door? 🤨 If one of the choristers had sprayed water from their drink bottle at the new organ or bashed it with their bicycle pump, I'd be surprised if someone hadn't 'had a word in their shell-like.'  It seems a bizarre way to treat a new instrument. 

There is a delightful video also on YouTube of H&H's Andrew Fiddes talking about the new organ. It's really heartwarming to watch and to hear Andrew speaking so passionately about his work. Here it is.

[S_L]

9 hours ago, Martin Cooke said:

Was anyone from the forum present at Thomas Trotter's recital yesterday? 40% of the pipework, according to H&H, is new, so it must sound quite different. It would be good to hear comment, if possible.

But, I watched the Evensong and Re-dedication on YouTube today. This was the second time in the recent past that I have seen a clergyperson throw water at a brand new instrument! The other occasion was the dedication of the new console at St Thomas, Fifth Avenue. What do I know, but is this really sensible? At Norwich, not only did the Bishop scatter water at the organ case, but he censed it, and then bashed it with his crosier, like a new Bishop does to gain entry to their cathedral at their enthronement. Again, is this appropriate? Can you imagine dedicating the Bishop's new car, during which the Bishop cracks the end of the crozier into the driver's door? 🤨 If one of the choristers had sprayed water from their drink bottle at the new organ or bashed it with their bicycle pump, I'd be surprised if someone hadn't 'had a word in their shell-like.'  It seems a bizarre way to treat a new instrument. 

 

Oh dear, Martin, we are going to disagree!

I think to liken a choirboy spraying drink from his bottle is trivialising ancient custom! I didn't see it but the Bishop who, unlike a lot of them, generally knows what he is doing, didn't throw water at the organ - he threw HOLY water - water that had been blessed! I'm sure there are others on here who have more Theology that I, but Holy Water is, to Anglicans, Lutherans and Roman Catholics as well as to the Eastern Orthodox, sacramental for protection and for protection against evil! Its use dates from 400AD and is mentioned in the Book of Numbers. At the beginning of Mass where I play, the Bishop/Priest goes around the church spraying the congregation with Holy Water. First, and because I am nearest to the Sanctuary, is me, sitting at the organ with an awful lot of electrics around me. Whilst this happens we sing Asperges me - from Psalm 51 - or a French equivalent! I've never thought of it as being dangerous but as a privilege! And the amount of water is minimal to be honest!

The use of Incense is also ancient. In the post-reformation Church of England incense was burned in a thurible before grand occasions. Judaic, Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican , Taoist and Buddists use incense as an offering to the Deity. 

The organ, in my, albeit rather, high-church, Catholic view, was blessed with water and offered to the Almighty for use in Liturgy in the Cathedral!

As for belting it with his crozier - I'm not too sure about that! 

(As a postscript: My deceased, good friend Archbishop Maurice Couve de Murville, when my late wife and I attended Mass in St. Chad's cathedral in Birmingham, would process around the church  'sprinkling'. He would come to Leah and I, knowing our high-church leanings, look at us, dip his, whatever it is called, into the water and hurl it at us, with a big smile on his face. We were well and truly soaked - and felt the better for it!!!)

[Hebridean]

I did see about 3 minutes of this service, at exactly the point which Martin describes, namely the hammering (I can't think of a better word) of the organ case by the bishop, with his crozier.  Not only did I think this very inappropriate but his injunction, addressed to the organ, which I think was 'Awake!' seemed - if I may say so, bizarre in the extreme.  I tuned out! 

[S_L]

2 hours ago, Hebridean said:

....................... but his injunction, addressed to the organ, which I think was 'Awake!' seemed - if I may say so, bizarre in the extreme. 

That reminds me of a story I related here many years ago. I think it was the opening of the organ in St. George's hall in Liverpool. W.T. Best was on the keys that day. A rather pompous Lord mayor declared "Let the organ play!" - nothing happened. "Let the organ play!" was repeated and, again, nothing happened. "I said, Mr. Best, let the organ play!" - to which Best waved his hands in the air and exclaimed "Let it, I'm not stopping it!"

[Hebridean]

Very good!

[P DeVile]

18 hours ago, Martin Cooke said:

Was anyone from the forum present at Thomas Trotter's recital yesterday? 40% of the pipework, according to H&H, is new, so it must sound quite different. It would be good to hear comment, if possible.

But, I watched the Evensong and Re-dedication on YouTube today. This was the second time in the recent past that I have seen a clergyperson throw water at a brand new instrument! The other occasion was the dedication of the new console at St Thomas, Fifth Avenue. What do I know, but is this really sensible? At Norwich, not only did the Bishop scatter water at the organ case, but he censed it, and then bashed it with his crosier, like a new Bishop does to gain entry to their cathedral at their enthronement. Again, is this appropriate? Can you imagine dedicating the Bishop's new car, during which the Bishop cracks the end of the crozier into the driver's door? 🤨 If one of the choristers had sprayed water from their drink bottle at the new organ or bashed it with their bicycle pump, I'd be surprised if someone hadn't 'had a word in their shell-like.'  It seems a bizarre way to treat a new instrument. 

There is a delightful video also on YouTube of H&H's Andrew Fiddes talking about the new organ. It's really heartwarming to watch and to hear Andrew speaking so passionately about his work. Here it is.

I was at the recital and it was wonderful. The HNB sound has been retained with the 1970s pipework replaced with new but in the original 1942 type of voicing. Having looked after the organ for the best part of 30 years I was hugely impressed with how the sound now properly speaks both ways from the screen. Well done H&H!

[John Robinson]

22 hours ago, Martin Cooke said:

Was anyone from the forum present at Thomas Trotter's recital yesterday? 40% of the pipework, according to H&H, is new, so it must sound quite different. It would be good to hear comment, if possible.

But, I watched the Evensong and Re-dedication on YouTube today. This was the second time in the recent past that I have seen a clergyperson throw water at a brand new instrument! The other occasion was the dedication of the new console at St Thomas, Fifth Avenue. What do I know, but is this really sensible? At Norwich, not only did the Bishop scatter water at the organ case, but he censed it, and then bashed it with his crosier, like a new Bishop does to gain entry to their cathedral at their enthronement. Again, is this appropriate? Can you imagine dedicating the Bishop's new car, during which the Bishop cracks the end of the crozier into the driver's door? 🤨 If one of the choristers had sprayed water from their drink bottle at the new organ or bashed it with their bicycle pump, I'd be surprised if someone hadn't 'had a word in their shell-like.'  It seems a bizarre way to treat a new instrument. 

There is a delightful video also on YouTube of H&H's Andrew Fiddes talking about the new organ. It's really heartwarming to watch and to hear Andrew speaking so passionately about his work. Here it is.

As an atheist, perhaps I should not comment.  However, spraying with water, encouraging incense fumes to permeate its innards, and bashing a brand new wooden case with a metal object.  Well, all I can say is that I hope the Holy Ghost comes along quickly and puts right any damage!  🙄

[S_L]

7 hours ago, John Robinson said:

As an atheist, perhaps I should not comment.  However, spraying with water, encouraging incense fumes to permeate its innards, and bashing a brand new wooden case with a metal object.  Well, all I can say is that I hope the Holy Ghost comes along quickly and puts right any damage!  🙄

So you believe in the Holy Ghost? Well, that's something I suppose!!!

[michaelwilson]

The Bishop has apologised on Twitter:

"A privilege to rededicate the shiny new organ and 'wake it up' with three knocks from my crozier! Apologies for leaving three dents on the side of the organ case - a story to tell in the future about the bishop's over zealous wake up shake"

[John Robinson]

7 hours ago, S_L said:

So you believe in the Holy Ghost? Well, that's something I suppose!!!

Oh yes.  I'm scared of ghosts, although I have never seen one, holy or profane.

[Colin Pykett]

3 hours ago, michaelwilson said:

The Bishop has apologised on Twitter:

"A privilege to rededicate the shiny new organ and 'wake it up' with three knocks from my crozier! Apologies for leaving three dents on the side of the organ case - a story to tell in the future about the bishop's over zealous wake up shake"

If there actually has been physical damage, I wonder who will pay for it to be remedied?  In the organisations I worked for during my career, individuals were empowered to do their jobs within the envelopes in which they were expected to work.  But this meant that the employer was also empowered to act to their detriment if they failed to achieve the expected results.  Being more specific, in one of the organisations this phrase formed part of my contract of employment: "while occasional mistakes will happen, carelessness will not be tolerated".  And it wasn't.  The contractual condition applied regardless of seniority, and I observed more than one very senior individual suddenly vanishing from the scene from time to time.  So did the Bishop make a mistake, or was it carelessness, I wonder?

[Rowland Wateridge]

It seems a very strange scenario.  I suspect that few commenting here (myself included) were either present or have seen a recording - is one available?  I witnessed the re-dedication of the organ in Winchester Cathedral in 1988, and nothing like this happened - that organ is far less accessible, and the re-dedication was at ground level.  Do we know whether there was physical damage to the side of the Norwich case, or was the Bishop’s response on Twitter, entering into the spirit of things, made tongue in cheek?

I’m doubtful that the Bishop has any personal liability if he did inflict damage, and even less likely that the Dean and Chapter (the organ belongs to them) would pursue that line!  In answer to Colin’s point, there are no issues of employment or contract here.

[Martin Cooke]

I don't suppose the damage is at all significant, if there even is any, though the bishop did comment on it before he gave the blessing and it all may have been tongue in cheek. Perhaps I have got 'over excited' about it, but in principle, surely, it's not the best way to treat a valuable artefact! I was thankful that when an organ near to me was dedicated recently, the bishop laid a gentle hand on the console as he said a prayer. The drama of the Norwich re-dedication was also slightly strange because the organ had been playing before the service and then during a processional hymn, so the bishop banging it on the side and saying 'awake' was a bit 'late in the day! The organ was very clearly already awake and in use! 

Anyway - it's here at 21.32. I think it would have been far better if the organ had been blessed from the cathedral floor so that the bishop addressed the west front of the case rather than disappearing on to the screen and speaking to a side of it. If the 'awake' scenario WAS deemed appropriate, perhaps the organ could have sounded a brief fanfare to demonstrate that it was truly awake. Yet more drama could have been added by some sort of dialogue between the bishop and the organ. 

[Colin Pykett]

23 minutes ago, Martin Cooke said:

Yet more drama could have been added by some sort of dialogue between the bishop and the organ. 

Dialogue sur les Grands Jeux, perhaps? 

[John Robinson]

1 hour ago, Martin Cooke said:

Anyway - it's here at 21.32. 

He gave it a hefty blow with his crozier.  I'd be surprised if there isn't a distinct mark on the case which, I think, is nothing short of vandalism.

[Colin Pykett]

Bishops live in palaces, don't they?  Presumably at least some of these contain antique or otherwise valuable furniture, probably of comparable quality and value to the beautifully hand-crafted casework of an organ.  So I wonder what the occupant of such a dwelling would think if someone came in and hit a treasured piece three times with a crozier with the force suggested by the video (which seemed to echo around the building each time)?  Martin Cooke wondered above whether he had got over-excited about it, but I wouldn't say that he has.  I've never seen anything like it!  Astonishing.

[handsoff]

Utterly disgraceful. It shows contempt for the material, the craftsmen, and the instrument.

[DaveHarries]

14 hours ago, S_L said:

So you believe in the Holy Ghost? Well, that's something I suppose!!!

Other than those in ordained ministry I think there are quite a few who believe in the Holy Ghost: one Sunday morning I was told by the Head Server of Bristol Cathedral that there was a former server who, if he was the one to unlock the sacristy on a Sunday morning, would knock quietly three times before entering in case he disturbed the Holy Ghost! I am not that superstitious though!

  

1 hour ago, Colin Pykett said:

Bishops live in palaces, don't they?  Presumably at least some of these contain antique or otherwise valuable furniture, probably of comparable quality and value to the beautifully hand-crafted casework of an organ.  So I wonder what the occupant of such a dwelling would think if someone came in and hit a treasured piece three times with a crozier with the force suggested by the video (which seemed to echo around the building each time)?  Martin Cooke wondered above whether he had got over-excited about it, but I wouldn't say that he has.  I've never seen anything like it!  Astonishing.

I once asked on Twitter why a Bishop knocks three times with his crozier on the door of a Cathedral at the start of the enthronement service. The first reply I got simply said: "See Revelation 3:20" which reads: "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."

Dave

[Dafydd y Garreg Wen]

2 hours ago, Colin Pykett said:

Bishops live in palaces, don't they? 

Not many do nowadays. Norwich doesn’t.

[Rowland Wateridge]

3 hours ago, DaveHarries said:

I once asked on Twitter why a Bishop knocks three times with his crozier on the door of a Cathedral at the start of the enthronement service. The first reply I got simply said: "See Revelation 3:20" which reads: "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."

Reading this (with apologies to Martin and S_L for an irreverent diversion from Norwich!), I’m afraid I was tempted to quote (courtesy of Wikipedia) from the entry on Bishop Henry Montgomery Campbell who confirmed me and Robert Bowles  - in my case when Bishop of Guildford, and so before his advancement to London and the event described below:

At his enthronement as Bishop of London he banged ceremonially with his crosier on the great West door of St Paul's, which there was some delay in opening. He turned to his chaplain and said, "We've come to the wrong place". When the door was finally opened revealing the aged canons of the cathedral, he commented, "The See gives up its dead“ (also a reference to the Book of Revelation, 20:13).

Returning to Norwich, I noticed that the Bishop was following a prepared liturgy, and I believe the Dean was standing alongside him throughout.   

[DaveHarries]

38 minutes ago, Rowland Wateridge said:

Reading this (with apologies to Martin and S_L for an irreverent diversion from Norwich!), I’m afraid I was tempted to quote (courtesy of Wikipedia) from the entry on Bishop Henry Montgomery Campbell who confirmed me and Robert Bowles  - in my case when Bishop of Guildford, and so before his advancement to London and the event described below:

At his enthronement as Bishop of London he banged ceremonially with his crosier on the great West door of St Paul's, which there was some delay in opening. He turned to his chaplain and said, "We've come to the wrong place". When the door was finally opened revealing the aged canons of the cathedral, he commented, "The See gives up its dead“ (also a reference to the Book of Revelation, 20:13).

Returning to Norwich, I noticed that the Bishop was following a prepared liturgy, and I believe the Dean was standing alongside him throughout.   

Thanks for sharing that quote from HMC. Yes it was the Dean (Andrew Braddock) alongside the Bishop of Norwich during that Evensong: before coming to Norwich he served in the DIocese of Gloucester after spending seven years before that as rector of two parishes and also as a rural dean in the Diocese of Norwich. A relative of mine who is a member of the congregation of Gloucester spoke very well of him when I mentioned the appointment in an email.

Dave

[contraviolone]

7 hours ago, John Robinson said:

He gave it a hefty blow with his crozier.  I'd be surprised if there isn't a distinct mark on the case which, I think, is nothing short of vandalism.

Completely agree. There is no excuse for this ridiculous behaviour. 

Yet another item on the long list of reasons for me for not supporting the Church of England. It's full of weirdos and yobs.

[S_L]

8 hours ago, Rowland Wateridge said:

Returning to Norwich, I noticed that the Bishop was following a prepared liturgy, and I believe the Dean was standing alongside him throughout.   

The Bishop of Norwich seems to be coming in for a 'lot of stick' and, in my view, some fairly unfortunate language!!

It is worth remembering that, in Norwich Cathedral, as in all Cathedrals of the Church of England, the Bishop is a visitor and does as he is told! The service will have been written, probably by the Precentor, with considerable input from the Director of Music, and then presented to the Dean for ratification before being sent to the Bishop's office - so that his Chaplain could brief him on what was expected of him.

And, of course, it would be the Dean, although this one has only been in post since January, who would have chaired the Chapter that decided to 'stump up' the money for the organ rebuild/renovation./restoration etc.

[handsoff]

All that may well be the case but the Bishop himself chose to strike the organ with what most seem to regard as unnecessary force.

 

[handsoff]

As a lighter afterthought and in an attempt to lift the mood a little, it's a good job a member of a church music band didn't ask for a new guitar to be blessed...